Andy's Blog
I recently added the song I'd Do Anything For Love (But I Won't Do That) by Meatloaf to my iPod. I know it is a bit of a classic, and it takes me back to Middle School, but in a more recent context it got me thinking about sex. Welcome to part two of my blog's discussion on Good Sex"Will you engage in oral sex once you are married?" This is a question I have posed to countless single, 20-something, Christians and Non-Christians that I have a trusted relationship with from Indiana to Los Angeles to Jerusalem to Atlanta. The responses have been quite surprising. Heard everything from "absolutely not," to "yeah, who wouldn't," and everything in between. But I think it gets to the heart of the real question, which is: what is sexually appropriate within a marriage?
Now for this discussion I am not talking about pre-marital activity (we can debate that some other time) nor am I talking about homosexual behavior. This is about what is appropriate within a heterosexual marriage.
For example, I had a professor in college that said his fiancée came to him before they were getting married and wanted him to list all of his sexual fantasies. After getting married, she did all these fantasies, because she wanted him to think of her when he thought of these fantasies and nobody else. I had another couple I know well that is dating come to an agreement that when they get married, one of the first things they will do is go to the local sex store and each pick "something" out. I know another married couple who isn't using birth control, and on days of the month where she is most likely ovulating, they do, as he put it, "other stuff."
On the other hand, I know of marriages that have fallen apart because one partner was uncomfortable with what was asked sexually (which for privacy I won't get into those details).
The church does an awful job of talking about this topic. It makes comments like "sex is good," but the term is so ambiguous that it still leaves so much confusion for the married and single alike. Even on our show, we have had people call in with questions about oral sex and anal sex during open mic, and even though we don't mind talking about swinging or pornography, etc...we don't ever seem to take those calls.
Well that all ends here. We are going to do something interesting on the blog that I have never done before. I am not going to give you what I think until I hear from everyone else out there. I usually get about 200-300 visitors, yet never get that many responses. So I know you are out there. I want to hear from everybody. Feel free to lie about your name and e-mail address. "Who" you are is not important. But what you have to say about this topic is. And be honest! Married, single, engaged. Christian, Non-Christian, Atheist. It doesn't matter. Pass this along to your friends. I want to hear from anybody and everybody. What is your perception of a healthy sexual relationship and how do you draw the line on what you feel comfortable with and what you don't?
To get you thinking, consider the following items (but I want you to be more philosophical in response then just responding to a laundry list)
- Oral sex
- Anal sex
- Sexual fantasy or role playing
- Using pornography
- Swinging or "Threesomes"
- Using sex toys
- Adventurous and/or Sex in Public Settings
Seriously. How do you establish what is and is not ok within the boundaries of a healthy sexual marriage? I will explain what I think in a comment later on this week but for those of you who want a really boring, long read, you are welcome to check out my senior thesis on the topic.
If you are looking for the real discussion and Andy's "official response" you probably want to check out the same post on his personal blog. There is more interaction there.
Oral sex -Sure, as long as both partners want it and it isn't abused.
Anal sex - Definitely Not
Sexual fantasy or role playing- Maybe. I feel that God designed sex (aside from reproducing) to be an intimate act of worship where two bodies come together as one before God. Sometime fantasy/role playing can be taken too far (ie: Sadomasochism)
Using pornography-Definitely not
Swinging- Definitely not
Using sex toys- No so much...I have no basis to actually think it is wrong except that I feel it somehow cheapens sex as God made it to be.
Adventurous and/or Sex in Public Settings - It sort of depends on how public....
My "example" when it came to a healthy sex life turned out to be VERY unhealthy, so I sometimes lean towards the side of super conservative. Although after five years of marriage and realizing that my husband will not turn out like my "example" I have loosened up some. Thank God for that!
The first three I decided to lump together: Oral/Anal/Fantasy.
I don't recall anywhere in the Bible being commanded not to participate in any of these activities, though I think there should be, because it would be funny to hear Jesus talk about role-playing. As a matter of fact, I actually think he does say something about it in the Gospel of Thomas; "And as a dog does not dress as a cat while mating, neither should you pretend to be something you are not while fornicating." So I guess that means no role-playing for me.
Pornography/Swinging- The only reason one would suggest the introduction of this into sex life is because one is not satisfied with their lover. This is a problem, and seems like a consensual form of adultery.
Sex toys/Sex in Public: Once again, I will refer to the words of Jesus in the Gospel of Thomas: Jesus was walking through the garden of Gethsemane when he came upon two people having relations. Aghast, Jesus rebuked them saying "Get a room! No one needs to see that! And put away the fuzzy handcuffs. Is it not written by the prophet Mohammad, 'And the Evil one will ensnare you like fuzzy metal around the wrists of wicked lovers'?"
That means that I do not think any of these are necessarily immoral, not that I would be necessarily comfortable or wanting to do all of them. Actually I would be comfortable without reservations with all of them except for swinging/x-somes category, which I probably would not be wanting to do.
[Comment edited due to use of personal name]
Also, may I suggest you consolidate your blog. It is frustrating that the comments are spread out among different sites.
I am confused. The mouth wasn't exactly "designed" for sex, but that is ok. So, at least on a moral standard, why is anal sex not appropriate?
Are you single? If you aren't, that guy is one lucky guy to have someone with that attitude. If not, pass along your phone number as I have some friends I am sure would love to get to know you.
Absolutely hilarious!
So is there no immorality in regards to sexuality? Anything goes as long as everyone is comfortable? What about incorporating animals?
That would be too easy for my nemesi (ok really you are Allen's nemesi). I gotta make you and Erik work for it
Oral sex is more about giving than getting. Oral sex can be viewed as an extension of kissing. What makes the penis any different then kissing the ears, the eyes, the mouth, the chest, the belly button... Also, oral sex can be arousing for the person giving almost as much as for the person getting if done "right".
On a side note: My human sex teacher said that our genitals are in fact cleaner than our hands, which really sort of gave me a different view on it.
Anal sex is more about getting than giving (at least that is how it seems to me). I can not imagine the woman (since we are talking about marriage relationships) would be getting a whole lot out of this experience except maybe a raw anal cavity.
In sum, using your mouth to please another is MUCH different than using your penis for your own pleasure.
And as a side note: ANY sexual activity can be sinful if it is being done SOLELY for selfish reasons.
And with that being said, you now know far too much about my views on sex and my sex life (and I thought you knew too much before this)....
Okay, here's the deal, I've taken time in responding to this blog (and I even had an extra day too). Here's the reason it's taken me so long: Talking about sex is uncomfortable. I realized more and more as I kept thinking about this and what I would write, that I didn't want to share my "sexual practices" with the world/ Andy. And then I found myself in a bind "I'm one of them" was the thought that first came to mind. "I'm one of the ones who won't talk about sex thus furthering the Church’s silence on the subject." So, that's why I didn't comment yesterday; I needed to process thru that.
Now, today I have come to this: sex is beautiful and wonderful and, while all things may be lawful, they may not all be profitable for me (and Adam). I agree with the comments that say you need to talk with your spouse because it really does take two to tango! Sex should be a dialog and it needs to be discussed and that, my friend, is the beauty of "Married Sex". In the context of the marriage relationship there is (or at least there should be) closeness and openness; a full disclosure that exists in no other earthly relationship. You come to that through the security of knowing "I am his only! He wants no one else but me and we are in this together for as long as we both shall live." To quote a show I watch too much "We took vows before God! Vows mean something and vows are not broken!" So in that there is so much trust and freedom and the ability to say, "Baby, while I know you are enjoying yourself right now, to me it just feels like you are flopping around on top of me and while I know you are trying to 'turn me on' I'm just kind of getting sea sick."
What works for/turns on one spouse may be the weirdest and strangest thing in the world to the other spouse – and THAT'S OKAY! God made us man and woman, we are different and we are unique and we have the privilege and the honor (for those who are married) to get to know someone so well that we can "Turn them on" and help them reach an orgasm that makes them think they are going to pass out!
To comment on Andy's list of things above – If it involved you and your spouse only – great! Talk about it and see what works for both of you. If you are bringing other people into it (Porn/ actual people) I will fight against that to the death! How can one keep that amazing, beautiful, God designed closeness with your spouse when there are other people involved!
And last but not least, let me say, my husband and I were given a book for a wedding present called "Sheet Music" by Kevin Leman that is amazing and wonderful and a definite read for anyone who is married (or will be married very soon) to read and talk about and experiment through.
Okay, I think that is about all for now. Have a nice day!
Agnostic. Non-virgin. I'm pretty traditional about sex...a serial monogamist with 4 sexual partners total. Single female.
The thrust (heh...sorry.) of Andy's post is awesome. An open discussion is crucial about sex in churches and in society. There should be free condoms everywhere. Planned Parenthood is one of the greatest organizations in America and I donate every spare dime I have to them. When you walk in there, all the shame is taken away, and they just care about your health. They know that you're human, that you've been to college (with all that that entails) and that you may have had sex. There's no judgment, and there shouldn't be.
I think there should be no shame about sex, and it should be a personal decision. If it's a decision between you and your own values, more power to you. If it's a decision between you, your spouse, and your God, wonderful. But the sooner we get the shame detached from sex, the sooner we can see more hopeful stats on STI's and HIV. And the people who need it most, honestly? Troubled youth and those with shame attached to the deed--those are the kids who make bad decisions because they didn't have people in their lives who were open enough with them to discuss the right ones. The ostrich method just does not work here--it results in pregnancies and frankly, a lot of therapy bills.
Now that we have the biases out of the way, my thoughts on what a healthy sexual relationship should be:
I have no problem with pre-marital sex. I'll actually encourage my children to have it, as long as it's in a monogamous, loving, safe relationship. In fact, I think that sex is an important part of dating; finding out if you're sexually compatible with someone will determine a lot of your marital happiness. I dated a guy that I thought I would marry, but we weren't sexually compatible. Now, that wasn't the dealbreaker, but having multiple sexual partners has taught me that sexual compatibility is a crucial part of a successful relationship and eventually, a marriage. It's the ultimate vulnerable act that satisfies your partner, and you want to know that they are indeed satisfied. Good sex will be a requirement for my marriage. :)
I think how experimental you get in your relationship is yet another personal decision. I've been experimental in some relationships and totally traditional in others. I learned the hard way that you can't let it get to the point of sadomasochism because it gets abusive and really just is not okay. I know that in some European cultures it's completely accepted, but I do believe that there are some absolutes: your partner's pain (outside of slight pain, as in gentle spanking) should not be something that is pleasurable to you. If it is, you need to get yourself some counseling immediately.
My own personal boundaries: Oral sex is totally, completely fine. I think it's a way for your partner to relax and for you to just worry about satisfying them. I think it's another way to be affectionate and build intimacy--they're being completely vulnerable and trusting, and you're keeping them safe and not breaking that trust. It's something that can bring you closer.
Anal sex? Meh. Acceptable, but not something I'm really into. Mostly because I haven't found a guy that I'm compatible with in that realm. Doesn't mean I'm not open to the idea, and I've tried it. It's not bad, just haven't found a way to make it work yet.
Swinging: Okay, here's my boundary. My partner is MY partner, and YOU can't have him. Sex is inherently about intimacy and building trust and showing affection within a relationship. Bring other people in, and those purposes no longer exist--neither should the sex.
Sex in public settings? Well, I don't really like getting arrested (although I've done that--the arrested, not the sex)...so I'd be pretty tame about that one. I don't think there's anything inherently unhealthy about it, though.
At the end of the day, sex is a private decision that needs to be openly discussed in a public forum. Parents need to talk about it with their kids, churches need to talk about what they think God intends for them, but also talk about decisions that humans make because they aren't God. Openness and honesty aren't "voyeurism", they're crucial talking about one of the most human things humans do.
Peace.
Oral Sex: Sure thing. If my husband wants it, he'll get it! I feel as a wife, I need to provide for my husband sexually. Do I enjoy it all the time? No. But I know it makes him happy and it satisfies him, and I love doing that for him. Now, if thats all he ever wants, then we will have a discussion.
Anal Sex: Eh, not so much. There are many other ways of having sex, and I dont think I would enjoy that! haha. But is my answer a for sure no? No. I would try it.
Sexual Fantasy and Role Playing: Sure! Why not have some fun with my spouse?? God designed this amazing thing for us, so why not mix it up and have some fun!
Pornography: No. I dont want other images of other women in his head. He can just keep images of me in his head. And, this shouldnt come up as an issue at all as long as I am providing for him sexually.
Swinging/Threesomes: No. God designed marriage to be between husband and wife. That equals 2 people and a closed marriage :)
Using Sex Toys: Like the role playing, sure! It can help you think "outside the box" a little bit and have fun with what God designed.
Sex in public settings: Haha, as long as you dont get caught! But seriously, there is a time and a place. We had sex on a boat once coming back from Catalina island, and it was fun and great. Now whenever we are on a boat or see an island, we laugh between us.
That show must be AWESOME! ;)
@Another Sophie:
I think a lot of what you had to say is great. I have even had a lot of my Christian friends, offline, contact me and ask who is this "Another Sophie" she has a great perspective. But I will take issue with one thing in particular.
I think this is a misconception of our generation, and frankly, one that I think this type of discussion is the only way to set it right (take that for being accused of voyeurism). And here's why:
I took a GREAT sex class in college where it was beat into heads over and over again that a.) our largest sex organ is our brain, and b.) sex is learned. Now this has implications across the board. But in regards to your comment, sexual incompatibility is a mental thing. Sometimes that is justified (i.e. your case of extreme sadomasochism), sometimes it isn't justified. But ultimately it comes down to a "brain" issue, a thinking issue.
Now I will be the first to admit sexual compatibility is important. But what I won't admit is that having sex before marriage is the only way to know that. If most of our issues relating sexual compatibility are head issues, then they can be resolved with good communication in a dating/engaged situation. The past five relationships I have been in have all included at some point in time, very open, honest dialogue about sexual expectation. If the conversation is what it should be, things like what you have alluded to in your past relationships would surface and would then be warning signs that, yeah, you probably aren't going to be sexually compatible and therefore now would be a good time to exit the relationship.
Sure, conversation isn't as sexy (ha!) as actually having sex. But frankly, it is my opinion that it is the God-honoring method of establishing the foundation of a healthy, holistic relationship that will be obedient to God's will now and fun, exciting and fulfilling for the years through out the marriage.
Thanks for the perspective. Welcome to the Blog. Hopefully you return. I think you have things well thought out and the perspective of a "newlywed" is important in this discussion as it is most relatable to those that are in high school and college contemplating having sex outside of marriage.
@Text Message I Received From "Marianne"
I'd like to respond to one other thing I received by text message from somebody I respect very much, but who would agree with "PM" that I was very wrong to post something like this on my blog. The text message read like this:
While I did admit that not everyone is called to change the world opinion on sex, I do feel that some are and that some need to be. But in regards to what the Bible says, that is what I think is the frustrating manner in which the church goes about doing this discussion.
First of all, take Leviticus. An incredibly detailed book on what is not appropriate sexually. Yet, something like oral sex isn't mentioned in it. Nor is anal sex, or sexual fantasy, etc....
Then, take a book like Song of Solomon, which most scholars will admit, and I agree, has poetic language alluding to oral sex (not to mention sex in semi-public settings...uhh the field).
Then mix that with the theology of God as creator, thus the creator of sex, and you have to admit that to take a claim that "it's about what the Bible says and nothing more," is a bit convoluted and unhelpful in the modern discussion of acceptable sexuality.
What Everyone Is Waiting For...
I know everyone is looking for what I am going to say regard the heart of this post, but I am going to wait until Wednesday to post it. My page views on this post say 245 but that is actually way off as the number is closer to 1,000 when Facebook and "front page" views are counted. I want to hear from a couple more of you out there.
The Theology
I have always thought theologically and morally speaking, this issue is a simple one. There are two simple boundaries to a God honoring sexual relationship. 1.) Both partners need to be comfortable with what is being asked, and 2.) It can only involve the two people that are actually married. Obviously this rules out things like porn, swinging and threesomes. But this leaves the door open to that which is comfortable within the sexual value system of the two people involved in the marriage. And I think this is the important distinction we need to remember when talking about sexual values and here’s why: everybody is different.
Take anal sex. Most on this blog have posted their sentiments that it isn’t their cup of tea. Which is fine. It isn’t really my thing either, as at this point, there is nothing appetizing to me about it. However, if someone came and said, “my husband and I really enjoy anal sex is it wrong?” I would have to answer no. If the two of them are comfortable and it doesn’t involve a “third party,” I do not see how theologically speaking it is morally wrong.
As with most things in relationships, the key to all of this is communication. This is why I categorically disagree with “Another Sophie” that believes you have to have sex to know if you are sexually compatible. More than anything, sex is a mental thing. And frankly, because it is mental, it means that the personal value system of the individuals involved is what is key to finding out what is and is not compatible. Part of this “search” for compatibility is done in a good, open, and honest dating relationship. But the other side is good communication within the marriage. And this is where I think a lot of sexually frustrated marriages (especially Christians) have major problems. I loved the quote I once read from Judith & Jack Balswick, authors of Authentic Human Sexuality: An Integrated Christian Approach
The Wife
All this brings me to my wife (which I don’t have). I want to love and cherish and desire my wife more than anything else in this world for the rest of my life. She deserves to have the security that I am hers, and only hers, and that she is my best friend, my only desire, and my lover. I want to have an intimate marriage that transcends all other relationships that ultimately will give me the closest picture of God’s love for His creation. A healthy sexual relationship is a big part of that.
And while I definitely look forward to the personal pleasure derived from my wife and mine’s sexual relationship, I also greatly look forward to the pleasure I get to be to her. And here is the challenge to the men out there. We sometimes think that (and the church doesn’t help) that men are the only ones who want sex or enjoy it or “need it.” And we have heard from a lot of women on this post about how they love to be pleasing to their men (which is awesome) and that brings them great joy. But men need to be able to say the same thing. I want to have great sex with my wife for her sake too. Her needs are very important to me, and selfishness should not even be considered.
I was talking to a friend mine today and she shared with such enthusiasm about how amazing her husband is at meeting her needs and how loved and desired that made her feel and how awesome it was to have such an amazing man. I want to be that man (not literally though). That’s a husband I can look up to (and I do for more reasons than just their sex life).
The Importance
Why does this all matter? Seriously. Why blog about this? Why not just keep this issue a private issue. I think because whether we like it or not we live in a sexual culture. Maybe I am on the only one, but I feel the message we get is that sex in marriage is boring and uninteresting and that the only way to have a fun, enticing and erotic sex life is outside of marriage. I think that is why it is hard for teenagers and singles to wait to have sex. And frankly, with the silence from the church and good Christian parents, I can’t exactly blame them.
I was talking to the same friend mentioned above about Jourdan’s story on the boat. I mentioned that I think that is what the church misses out on when they discuss sex. It is a story like that where single-life sex looks so pathetic to a true, exciting, marital sex life. No, not because it was semi-public (although that doesn’t hurt), but because of what she said afterwards. About how they look at boats and islands and it makes them laugh now. It brings a great memory.
Jourdan has been married for 6 months. Think of all the amazing things they are going to share over the lifetime of their sexual relationship. Is that not a better message for the singles out there? Is that not a reason to wait? It’s not a scare tactic. It isn’t pregnancy or STDs or emotional stress that will keep people living the full lives they should. The only thing that can communicate this properly is the passion and greatness of a true, God-designed, sexual relationship.
All this reminds me of a great quote from Steven Tyler – lead singer of Aerosmith – who I think would know a lot about one night stands.
That is the message that isn’t being communicated. That is why I think this topic is important. That is why I will continue to talk about this openly and why I think others – especially those who are influencing youth – should do the same.
"I want to love and cherish and desire my wife more than anything else in this world for the rest of my life. She deserves to have the security that I am hers, and only hers, and that she is my best friend, my only desire, and my lover. I want to have an intimate marriage that transcends all other relationships that ultimately will give me the closest picture of God’s love for His creation"
Wow, how powerful and well written. Any woman would be priveledged to have a husband like you.
All that to say - True That Mr. Borgmann!
Did you get my mail yet?
I think the question of appropriateness itself is misguided. There is no inappropriate. There is only what works and what doesn't. To invoke the concept of "inappropriate" requires some sort standard. But who would set this standard? God? Your spouse? An international committee on sexual etiquette? The Bible is certainly of little help here. Leviticus does indeed proscribe certain sexual practices, but what are we to make of all the OT Pimptriarchs like Abraham and Jacob and David and Mack-Daddy-Supreme Solomon. God certainly never forbade polygamy; so do we call these God-honoring marriages as well?
Actually I think this whole idea of Godly marriage is a recent social construct. Of course, women love the idea, as is evident by the posts above. They have everything to gain from a faithful husband. But the husband has everything to lose. Evolutionary psychology makes this clear. Men have a trip-wire in their brains that goes off immediately after orgasm. No matter how attractive the partner, this little evolutionary practical joke screams, "GET OUT" like the ghosts that inhabit horror movies. It's different for women though. A woman's instinct is to hang on, to do anything necessary to keep the man with her, because this is what kept her genes going a million years ago.
So "don't hate the playa, hate the game" turns out actually to be a rather good piece of advice.
Andy:
That's a tricky question. It all depends if (non-human) animals can consent to sex or not.
Luckily I never had to wrestle with that question myself.
Interesting, however your reply seems to imply that your husband is not returning the favor. May I suggest you gently nudge him in that direction next time? You won't regret it!
And I will try to respond to the world's longest comment. Or at least greatest hits from it.
No real argument on 1) except that I do not think it's a theological issue. Let me put it this way: if you had a different theological outlook, if you were say a Jew, an atheist or even a Calvinist, would you change your opinion on 1)?
About 2) I neither think it is correct nor theological. It is a cultural norm that arose in a society that had no very effective birth control, no paternity tests and generally very early marriages (median first marriage age was more than a decade earlier than contemporary US) with onset of puberty being a few years later. So I definitely think premarital sex is absolutely ok. I would even say extramarital sex is ok as long as both people are fine with it (i.e. swinging rather than cheating), but that is not something I would probably be comfortable with.
[quote]
Obviously this rules out things like porn, swinging and threesomes.
[/quote]
I get why you think swinging and threesomes violate the exclusivity of marriage, but what about porn? It is really just fiction. You are no more engaged is sexual activity with people on screen than you are robbing jewelry stores in diamond heist movies.
I am not! No really, you are absolutely right there.
However, is very much correct!
As you have said: people are different. And some of those differences do not come out until the fact.
[quote]
Part of this “search” for compatibility is done in a good, open, and honest dating relationship. But the other side is good communication within the marriage.[/quote]
But part of these differences are innate, and will not be resolved just by talking. And if your dating relationship does not include sexuality, I do not see how you dating can really search for sexual compatibility, no matter how " good, open, and honest" it might be. That is especially true if you are both virgins. You don't even know what you are looking for!
But if one spouse sees another as "prudish" and vice versa as "overly sexed", don't you think it would be better to know that before "joining yourself forever" (as Schiller said)?
You said some good things in "The Wife" segment, but I won't be commenting on those since there is essentially no disagreement there.
That difficulty is compounded by the fact that "no sex before marriage" is derived from a culture where marriage was quite different than it is today.
Human body and mind is just not "designed" to start sex 15 years or more after the onset of puberty. Therefore it is logical that as our cultural mores about marriage change so do our mores about sex before it. These two things are interconnected and you cannot move one without moving another, lest you risk breaking the whole mechanism.
And how would that marital bliss been damaged if they did not remain virgins until their wedding night. If anything, it would have made it better. Jourdan's husband might even have gotten his degree as a cunning linguist then. :)
That means that their marriage is still very fresh. Wait until the 5 year itch hits. >:)
It is definitely not a reason to wait, as premarital experiences do not detract from future marital bliss. You don't have to wander the desert, passing up oases because you haven't reached the one you want to settle in forever yet. And you'd want to enjoy that oasis before you decide to settle there forever anyway. I know I am heavy on metaphors today, but I want to avoid the old one about not buying a car before test driving it.
And let's face it, not every marriage is great. For many people it would be a long wait followed by a letdown.
And that's where we differ. To me sexuality evolved for billions of years (starting with unicellular eukaryotes) and is thus much more complex, wonderful and even awe-inspiring that the simplistic "one man, one woman, for life , because God said so and pay no attention to Jacob or Solomon or other of the many characters in the Bible this does not apply to" Christian formula.
Interesting quote. Of course, for it to apply, one has to have had thousand one night stands. And that's my point. It takes all kinds of sexual relationships for a really fulfilled sex life. You miss our if you never have a really passionate no-strings-attached one night stand. And you miss out if you never find a soul mate that you can share sexuality with on a whole different level. As the Bible says (in Ecclesiastes, one of my favorite books of the Bible (my faves tend to be in the Hebrew Bible for some reason), there is a season for everything.