Andy Borgmann's Blog

MERRY CHRISTMAS ANDY!!! :) LOVE IT (fyi...it's the 'Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim'...thanks)

Quoted From: Erin [Visitor]
fyi...it's the 'Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim'...thanks

Ohh you would make Arte so proud. Just kidding, I actually agree with Arte on this one, it's better for the team to be associated with Los Angeles. I know somewhere Jared and Patrick are cringing at what I just said.

P.S. Next time you sing take me out to the ballgame at an Angels game, I will pay you $100 to say Cubbies, deal? Awesome!

Hell, I'm an atheist and I celebrate Christmas (in a secular way of course). I mean you people stole that holiday from the pagans, why can't we secular people steal it from you?

Quoted From: The Last Cainanite [Visitor]
Hell, I'm an atheist and I celebrate Christmas (in a secular way of course). I mean you people stole that holiday from the pagans, why can't we secular people steal it from you?

For once my Last Cainanite friend, you and I agree. I have no problem with you guys stealing it from us; I sort of wish we didn't have Christmas at all.

Most people don't realize the use of the Christmas tree was a synthesis of pagan worship and Christian theology to appease a ancient culture that was hostile towards Christianity. So it is, by definition, ancient idol worship.

In addition too that, the idea of receiving gifts, is so antithetical to the gospel it isn't even funny. What we have turned the dates from Thanksgiving to December 25th is worse than idol worship.

But here is my question that I just don't understand: why do you celebrate it? Is it the gifts? The family? What's the motivation? I don't have any desire to celebrate Yom Kippur (although now that I think about it, I actually should), or Ramadan.

Quoted From: sectim42 [Member]
For once my Last Cainanite friend, you and I agree. I have no problem with you guys stealing it from us; I sort of wish we didn't have Christmas at all.[/blockquote]

Oh, aren't you a sour little Scrooge. :)

[blockquote]
So it is, by definition, ancient idol worship.[/blockquote]

While technically you might be correct, I think you are placing too much emphasis on that. Your attitude is exemplary of why many Protestant churches look like Tupperware distribution centers rather than proper churches like St. Peter's Basilica or

[blockquote]
In addition too that, the idea of receiving gifts, is so antithetical to the gospel it isn't even funny.
[/blockquote]

Isn't the whole idea of the gospel about receiving a free gift (of salvation?) I mean, I'd rather have a free gift of a PS3, but you don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

[blockquote]
What we have turned the dates from Thanksgiving to December 25th is worse than idol worship.
[/blockquote]

That is true, although I would use the word "annoying" rather than "idol worship". The season is just too long, the songs are played too much etc. But you can see the same kind of stretching elsewhere, like the 2 year presidential campaign.

[blockquote]
But here is my question that I just don't understand: why do you celebrate it? Is it the gifts? The family? What's the motivation?[/blockquote]

All of the above. It is just a good holiday celebrated throughout the West. And Christmas has lost much of its religious baggage, and is really a quasi-secular holiday now...

[blockquote]
I don't have any desire to celebrate Yom Kippur (although now that I think about it, I actually should), or Ramadan.

Which cannot be said of Yom Kippur or Ramadan, which very much have great religious significance. Also, Yom Kippur is the Day of Atonement, and Ramadan is the month of fasting, quite different than the joyous, merry mood of Christmas. A mood whose origins lie not in the birth of the Son but in the birth of the Sun - coming back to paganism again.

Another reason is - I grew up in the Western world, which has traditionally celebrated Christmas. It is thus natural I should celebrate it and not eat dates on Eid ul-Fitr.

Quoted From: The Last Cainanite [Visitor]
Isn't the whole idea of the gospel about receiving a free gift (of salvation?) I mean, I'd rather have a free gift of a PS3, but you don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

Exactly. It is about receiving a (wait no, the) gift. But classically training children to get caught up in the Christmas season rush of getting th newest, hottest thing, seems to some how detract from the gift we really should be focusing on. There really is no surprise in understanding why you would want to receive a PS3 (or something else that is newer, sexier, etc...) over the grace of God - mega-corporations have spent trillions of dollars over the 20-years of your life to make you think you need to have it - and that Christmas is ultimately about receiving what you want.

Quoted From: The Last Cainanite [Visitor]
Your attitude is exemplary of why many Protestant churches look like Tupperware distribution centers rather than proper churches like St. Peter's Basilica

Yeah, while they were spending enormous amounts of money on buildings, their were thousands, if not millions of people starving through the Dark Ages - while the church was too busy building buildings. I definitely have my quarrels with churches like North Point on some issues, but frankly, one thing I think they got right is that they don't spend money on making their buildings look expensive.

Quoted From: sectim42 [Member]
There really is no surprise in understanding why you would want to receive a PS3 (or something else that is newer, sexier, etc...) over the grace of God - mega-corporations have spent trillions of dollars over the 20-years of your life to make you think you need to have it - and that Christmas is ultimately about receiving what you want.

Not like the Big Christianity hasn't spent billions trying to persuade people that Salvation (tm) is just what they need (by first telling them they will go to hell unless they are not only Christians but also the right flavor of Christianity).

That said, I am really surprised you say "there is no ssurprise" there. If God, and his gift, were in fact real, it would be very surprising why people would prefer something else. Of course, there is no surprise for me, as XBox 360 or this new 62" HDTV or whatever is real, unlike the "free gift" promissed in the Gospels.

Yeah, while they were spending enormous amounts of money on buildings, their were thousands, if not millions of people starving through the Dark Ages - while the church was too busy building buildings.[/quote]

Note that the money spent on buildings gets spent on paying builders, artisans, laborers, painters and sculptors. These people then pay for lodging, food, entertainment in the area. And what they create has lasted for centuries and brings returns, tangible and intangible, even today.

And as a matter of policy, if you have a population out of work it is always better to give them work then to give them handouts.